Episode 48: From Ethical Hacking to Entrepreneurship: The Chelsea Jarvie Story

‍

Transcript

Narrator:

Welcome to 9 0 9 Exec, your source for wit and wisdom in cybersecurity and beyond. On this podcast, your host, veteran chief security officer and Cyber Aficionado Den Jones taps his vast network to bring you guests, stories, opinions, predictions, and analysis you won't get anywhere else. Join us for 9 0 9 exec, episode 48 with Chelsea Jarvie.

Den:

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of 9 0 9 Exec, your podcast for executives in tech. Then hopefully we educate, inspire, and encourage you and do all that random bullshit. I mean, great stuff. So I always have exciting guests, and today, someone from my homeland actually that I met via one of our networking communities, Chelsea Jarvie, founder and CEO of Neon Guard. So Chelsea, welcome to the show, and I think you're actually in San Francisco this week. So why don't you introduce yourself and let's dig into some fun topics.

Chelsea:

So I'm Chelsea Jarvie. I've worked in the cyber world for about 10 years, and as a cso, as a vulnerability management person, I've done it all and I'm now founding a new company in the age assurance space. So I'm in San Francisco for three weeks, not been here before. And yeah, it's been cool trying to find new customers, investors. Yeah, it's been an interesting week so far. I've got two weeks to go.

Den:

Wow. Well, we want to dig into this one, but let's start. Let's start. So Scottish accent, I detected that because smart like that. So why don't you talk a little bit about where you're based and then really as a young girl in tech, how the hell did you get into tech? And Scotland is a young girl because it's a pretty male dominated field, right?

Chelsea:

Yeah, sure. So I'm based in Glasgow, but I'm from, if anybody who knows Scotland, I'm from Perth originally, which is a bit further north. And yes, I got started in tech by studying ethical hacking. That was my undergrad degree, done that in Dundee in Scotland as well. But yeah, I had no ambition of going into tech or computer science at all or cyber. And I thought when I started my ethical hacking degree, I thought, God, I don't hack things in my spare time. Is this the right degree for me? But I was on a funny course. I actually wanted to do pharmacy. I loved biology, loved science, wanted to do pharmacy, and I got rejected. So I had nothing to do after school, but computing was always one of my strongest subjects. So I thought I really want to help people, and that's what I wanted to do with pharmacies, help people get better and things. So when I realized that you could help people through computing, I thought, right, well maybe ethical hackings for me, I can protect people from the hackers. And so that's how I ended up in it. And at the time I thought, this is crazy, why am I doing this? But it definitely has been the right field for me

Den:

Years

Chelsea:

Later.

Den:

So pretty much stumbled, stumbled into it. So if you're going to go back and give your, so I'm guessing at this point were you what, 17?

Chelsea:

Yes. I started my degree at 19. So yeah, when I was 18 I had nothing to do. So I went to college for a year and studied more. We do hires, already had six hires. I studied another four hires for no reason really, just to work out what was I going to do with my life.

Den:

What next?

Chelsea:

Yeah,

Den:

Well it is funny. So I don't know if the people in the US know this, but in Scotland we can leave high school when we're 16, there's no real concept of graduating. They have here,

Chelsea:

It's

Den:

Like you're 16, you're allowed to leave, get it, and then if you really want, you could stay in school until you're 18 and do hires. So more certificates really. And then from 16 onwards you have the ability to go to college or university, but they would call your trade schools as well. Yeah. So basically about 18, 19, you're figuring out, right, okay, I want to do this. So if you were going to give the young Chelsea 18 advice, knowing what you know now, how would that change?

Chelsea:

Yeah, I think the careers department in school just had no idea the types of jobs that you could actually do in the corporate world. And so ethical hacking was never something discussed at school. Cybersecurity was never discussed. And there's so many, I think that the cybersecurity field has grown, but there's so many different skills needed in this field. So I think trying to go out and meet people in industry and sort of break out of that career, the career advice that you get in school to try and get more real world insight, I think I wish I'd done that sooner.

Den:

To

Chelsea:

Be honest, I worked in boots, so Walgreens here, I worked in the pharmacy, which was why I wanted to do pharmacy, was just what I had access to. And I guess maybe if there's more corporates going into schools to see all the different types of jobs that you can do, I think is helpful as well. So people have a wider idea of what they could do after they leave.

Den:

Yeah, it's really interesting because I am going to guess, this was a few years after me. I was a postman when I was 16, walking the streets of Livingston. Oh, oh God. Yeah. And there was no, I think in Scotland, it's funny, I just always thought of, well, what are all the jobs that people do that I know? And when I moved here, my kids grew up here and they were like, I could be a rocket scientist at nasa, I could be an entrepreneur. Why? Because we know so many of them in Scotland growing up. So I'm validate myself mid nineties, in the mid nineties in Scotland, just as the internet was being born, there wasn't a lot of people I knew that even had computers or knew what computers were. So when I left the post office to go to college, I only done that. My body had music gear and I wanted music gear. So your motivations are pretty simple. So I mean basically that was it for me. And it sounds like for you, you were like the pharmacy thing just fell through the pan. Okay, what next? I'm good on the computer.

That's pretty funny. So when you went through college, how many other, so maybe 30 plus people in the class and how many females were in the class?

Chelsea:

So my course at uni I think started with about 70 in total, and there was only three women and two of us graduated. Yeah,

Den:

Shit. So

Chelsea:

It was really, yeah, I found it quite intimidating actually joining that degree. And everybody was very nice, but a long time and thought about just leaving it to do what I never knew, but I thought, I don't know if this is for me.

Den:

Yeah, I mean, I think back to my class, I do know there was at least one female in the class, which is kind of interesting because when you go into the industry itself, the numbers aren't spectacularly different, right? No. So as you were growing, so you leave uni, what's the first job you get and what was that like?

Chelsea:

Yeah, so when I was at uni, I started getting involved in the Women in tech scene and then through that managed to get two internships. Our degrees are four years, I'm not sure what they are in the us, but in Scotland, they're four years. In England they're three. So I managed to do two internships. One was at Skyscanner, it was headquartered in Edinburgh, and then another was in Prudential, which is a pension financial services company based in Sterling. I dunno if you remember them from your days. Everybody worked at the Pru at some point. I think

Den:

I done a stint at Scottish Widows.

Chelsea:

Oh, right.

Den:

It's funny. It's like, yeah, you do the insurance scene or the bank scene or the tech scene.

Chelsea:

So I got on really well at Prudential, and then they offered me a graduate job in their vulnerability management team. So that's what I'd done after uni. I went straight to there and I think there was me and one other lady in the team as a graduate, but they were really a lovely team, very supportive. I really enjoyed it, but I always knew I wanted to do more than just focus on vulnerability management. I wanted to learn all parts of cyber so I could eventually be a cso. I had this goal when I finished uni, I didn't really even know what a CSO was, but I was like, I want to be a CSO by the time I'm 30. So I then ended up on this crazy career trail of climbing the ladder and learning as much as I could about risk and strategy and the vulnerability management side and all the other tech side project management to try and get that overarching view of cyber to then get to be a cso. I started out in vulnerability management, like Tenable was my day to day.

Den:

Wow. So how many years? Yeah, I was going to say, how many years or when did you then become a cso?

Chelsea:

Yeah, so I became a CISO at 29.

Den:

Oh, wow.

Chelsea:

So I just got in, yeah,

Den:

That was last week then, right?

Chelsea:

I went, well, it wasn't that long ago, to be honest. Yes. I managed to do it by the time I was 29, although I did give up on that goal at one point. I started my own business when I was, I've been 26 and I thought, well, I'm going to be a CSO because I'm doing contracts and consultancy work now. And then I ended up going into a fractional CSO job just after I'd had my first baby.

Den:

So

Chelsea:

Yeah. Yeah, I've done loads of things. I've been in cyber for 10 years now, and it's been a crazy journey.

Den:

It's interesting. I sit there and I'm like, I've been doing this shit since the mid nineties and I think about whether it identity and access and networking and all that stuff. And then I'm like, well, at what point did we determine that this was a cyber gig? And I think there's almost that pivotal time where most breaches were tied back to identities. So if you were doing identity and access management that you considered, you're really delivering an identity service to a business, well you are. But now a huge part of that is protect the business, right?

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Den:

So yeah, let's talk about a little bit about, you got into consulting and then at some point, so it looks like about six, seven years ago you started Neon Circle. So do you want to introduce what's Neon Circle and what was the inspiration to start that business?

Chelsea:

Yeah, yeah. So Neon Circle is my consultancy business where I do fractional CSO board training, cyber strategy. And I started that because after leaving my tenable pen testing gig, I quickly started moving into Greenfield cyber. So I was then trying to build cyber teams from scratch, and I'd done it in government. I set up the cyber team for this brand new government agency in Scotland, which was really, it was a crazy gig because I went from no staff to 30 staff in the space of 18 months. And it was a mix of permanent contract. And it was really tricky because it was political. It was trying to get the right staff on public sector wages. It was setting the strategy. It was really, really tricky and I'd done it, but by that point, I had been through the mill, it felt like in terms of as a woman in cyber and tech leadership from a discrimination perspective, just the attitudes and the culture that I'd had to work in throughout a few jobs and a few teams. And I thought, I'm not doing this. So that's why I set up my own company. I thought I'm going to work with people who respect me, who want to work with me, and I get to decide who I'm going to work with.

So that's why I set it up. And so I left my public sector job with nowhere to go because I thought, I'm just not prepared to stay here anymore,

Den:

Not putting up with this bullshit,

Chelsea:

Which I was really like, oh God, how am I going to pay my bills? But it actually worked out fine. I built a really good network and managed to get a contract work. So I finished on the Friday. I had contract work set up for the Monday, so it worked out fine. And so that business has been me giving the advice and the strategic experience that I have because in the consultancy role as well, I've set up more cyber teams and I love cyber transformation, like building something from scratch or transforming the cyber posture that a company's currently in to something that's more in line with the board's appetite to risk. And working at how you do that with the money that you've got, you've never got enough money, never got enough, and you've never got enough resource.

Den:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Chelsea:

So I love that. And I've had really great clients over the years. And as part of that, I also then started doing keynote speaking, which I didn't go out looking to do keynote speaking, but people kept asking me to speak. So then I've now managed to be working all over the world as a keynote speaker. That's great. Yeah. I had great.

Den:

Yeah, let me pause you there. I want to come back to this whole keynote speaking business, but

Chelsea:

Pause

Den:

For a brief message. Hey folks, just want to take a minute to say thanks for listening to the show, watching the show, however you engage with us. If you're liking the conversations, if you think we're adding some value, we'd love you to subscribe and share the show with your friends. If you know of anyone else that would benefit ideally for us that will help us be able to grow the show, invest more in the quality, get some more exciting guests, and keep bringing you some executive goodness. Thanks everybody. Take it easy and enjoy the rest of the discussion. So yeah, let's dig into, so there's a couple of things you mentioned there, right? One is the culture of the environment you are working in, I think was less than respectful to your gender. You've done quite a few government leadership gigs. So what was the atmosphere in government in the UK back then? It's

Chelsea:

Interesting.

Den:

A old men business,

Chelsea:

I think. Do you know what? It's not just government. I've worked in different organizations throughout my career where you get some great people, some great very respectful colleagues to work with and mentors. But there's also, throughout the industry, not even just in roles that I've worked in, but just in the industry as a whole, where you get the sort of boys club mentality or people just look at you and they don't listen to your experience and your knowledge and don't respect what you have to say and bring to the table. So I've had it from, because I was in my twenties, I had it because of my age. I had it because of my gender. I had

Den:

The accent. Yeah, you only got where you did because of the accent.

Chelsea:

Maybe with my accent, I dunno. I dunno actually. And then comments, when are you going to have kids? If you have kids, how long are you going to take off? But that was before I had kids. And then I have, I've now had two kids and had, it's just some of the things that have been said to me has been pretty horrendous. And I

Den:

Think if you were give, yeah. So if you were going to give advice to women who are following in your footsteps, positive advice, what would you suggest on how they navigate some of those tougher remarks or conversations?

Chelsea:

Yeah, it's really tough because nowadays I just don't put up with it. But I think that's taken a long time to build that confidence in yourself to know that you're not going to tolerate it. But I think even if in the moment somebody catches you off guard, I think going back and saying, actually, this is how you made me feel, I think is really empowering to you. But also some people don't even realize that maybe they've made a remark that doesn't sit right with you. Some people do and that's a whole other thing. But I think for some people it's just like, I actually didn't realize or didn't mean it in that way or in a disrespectful way. So I think knowing that it's okay to say, actually I don't feel okay with what you've said there, I think is an empowering thing. But also if you are an environment where you're just not respected, get out. Don't waste time in a place where you're not respected for your knowledge and your experience and the views that you bring. Get out and get onto something else. That's where you,

Den:

I used to, yeah, I used to say I used to work with someone who's a bit of a difficult leader. As you mentioned, some of this life can get a little bit political, and I don't mean world politics, internal enterprise politics.

And somebody said to me, they were like, man, how do you work with that guy? And he can remain nameless, but how do you work with that guy? And he was a peer of mine, and I turned around and said, I find the things that we have in common for the business, and I focused on moving them forward quicker. The things that I know he's not in alignment with, I park them a little bit and just plant seeds and chip away. So the reality is you might, in order to deliver 10 things, you always need your network within an enterprise, within that business to really help deliver those things. So

For me, it's always a case of navigate those conversations. But again, this goes back to testament of build your network, build your network even inside the organizations. And sometimes that's like, I'm going to go play golf and I'm not very good at that, but sometimes I'll do it. And then other times going out for drinks and dinner. I'm really good at that. I'm pretty solid there. Yeah, I think, but it's harder right now you're picking. It is funny because you and I both do something very similar. We're both out there applying this fractional CSO field vulnerability, virtual cso like consultancy type business. And you mentioned something which I totally subscribed to, which is I'm not going to work with assholes, quite frankly, even if I come across a customer that I think at the beginning this customer is just going to be a pain in the ass, or they don't know why we're there, I don't necessarily care to lose that business. Mean especially we're in our first year, so for me it's like I want all the business I can get because we're really scrapping for business, but at the same time, we are getting referrals on a regular basis, people within their network. I don't want to work with idiots and stuff. So if you were going to give someone, let's talk about a couple of bits of advice for someone who's starting to do what we do, what would you suggest? One bit of advice of something you should definitely do and one thing to avoid?

Chelsea:

Yeah, so my husband always says, you need to protect your peace. And so if there's somebody who's disrupting your peace, then you need to find a way of either getting to a common ground with that person or getting rid. And I think in terms of your network, I cannot emphasize the same as you, how important your network is. And I think your network, not even just in cyber, but just in tech, in your own niche area, I am involved in a lot of women in tech networks and then cyber leadership networks. And I am just finishing my PhD as well. So networks in as many places as you can, I think is very, very beneficial for your career. And then, yeah, definitely protect your peace and work out where you're respected and where you can give the most value as well. I think that's the two things that I live by

Den:

In

Chelsea:

My career.

Den:

I always think of this, which is one for me is just remain optimistic, be positive, realize I look at it like this. In the first six months, things were slow to a small grinding start, and I was just like, oh, this is shit. But then I was driving up to Tahoe and I remember just passing all these buildings all the way up, and then I was like, wait a minute. Every single one of these companies needs protection. Every single one of these companies struggle. Every single one of these companies, to your point earlier, they don't have the budget, they don't have the resources, and quite often they don't have the leadership skills to navigate through that.

Chelsea:

And

Den:

I'm like, so there's lots of opportunity. There really is. And for me as well, a lot of my network are people that do what we do as well. And yourself. I'll say, come on the show. And bringing people on the show who do what I do isn't detracting away from me making money or building my business. If anything, it helps us grow together. We can help each other. So I look at it, be optimistic, build that network. And I love your husband's statement of the piece, right?

Narrator:

Yeah,

Den:

Yeah. Pick who you socialize with, pick your circle wisely. Absolutely. People in your family or friend group that will still try and bring you down. And I remember in Scotland, I mean, it's funny, some of the nicest people in the world in Scotland, but shit, they can be very pessimistic if you start telling them what you're doing, they will find ways to tell you what's negative about it before they'll find ways to tell you what's positive. And I do get that here as well sometimes. But I always say to people, think of what is possible, aspire to what's possible, and then the negative stuff, if people bring negative things, you're like, Hey, that's great because I know I'm going to solve that problem, that negative thing you just brought me. I'm aware of it now. Thank you. You can go piss up.

Chelsea:

Yeah, that's so funny that you say that because I feel like in Scotland you have to be resilient. If you want to be successful outside of Scotland, you have to be resilient to the culture that we've grown up in. And it's funny being here in San Francisco because everybody is so ambitious and excited, and it is a real contrast.

Den:

A lot of the weather, the sun

Chelsea:

And the weather, the weather,

Den:

Although you've been in San Francisco, the weather in the Bay Area is like a microclimate where San Francisco is cloudy and foggy and the sun burn off in the afternoon. Whereas in San Jose where I'm at, it's like you wake up in the morning, it is actually misty this morning, winter time. But generally speaking, it's always beautiful. I'm like, this better. Great. How could I not be an

Chelsea:

Optimist? Yeah, I'm jealous. I'm jealous.

Den:

Yeah. Now keynote speaking. So it is funny because I think of public speaking and keynote speaking, I think there's a level to speaking engagements.

Narrator:

So

Den:

I've done a lot of paid sponsored where the vendor sponsors the conference and you go in and you jump on the stage for 30 minutes, you're talking behalf of the vendor. I've done a bunch of that shit. I've done the odd keynote thing. I've spoken to vendors and their sales teams and their r and d teams and all bunch sorts of stuff. My keynote speaking thing though is a little elusive. So why didn't you share, how did you get into it and what kind of events have you spoke at and what do you like about that

Chelsea:

Other

Den:

Than Scottish people talk a lot.

Chelsea:

Yeah, we love to talk. So yeah, so I started chair this cyber conference in Scotland like six years ago, and I just got the offer, it came my way. And then since that point, I think because people saw me cheering that conference, then were asked, I was getting asked to come and talk. So at the start, it was a lot for women in tech. And then I think just through my LinkedIn is where I've got all my speaking slots. And since that point, people have then invited me to more international conferences. So last year I felt so lucky to get a chance to go to Brazil. So I spoke in Sao Paolo at the cybersecurity summit there as the closing keynote. And I think in those talks, it's really important that you're not selling anything. You're just giving

Knowledge and advice and thought leadership, I guess, in whatever space you've been asked to talk about. And then I was in Malta last year. I was in Davos in Switzerland a few weeks ago. So I've had the chance to speak in some really cool places, but I think it is, I don't love being sold to. So I think it's what is the thought leadership that you're trying to convey to different people, different cultures, different environments? Because globally in cyber, we do all have the same threats, but we do culturally just adapt to them in different ways. So I've really enjoyed that. I've enjoyed getting to speak and meet a diverse audience of people from all over the world and discuss cyber and the things, the strategies that I've had in my leadership positions and what's worked and what's not, and then learning from other people as well. So it's been interesting. I never chose it, but I do love that network and the connection and trying to give value to people. Some people take it, some people don't what your advice, but if it just gets 'em thinking about something, I think that's really cool.

Den:

Yeah, and it is interesting for me because one of the things, I worked for a startup before I started Nine to Nine Cyber, and I ran Scur it, but it was a zero trust vendor that I had been a customer of during my time at Adobe. And I basically said to the founders, I'm like, I'll do the talks, but I'm not going to do the talks and talk about your product. If anyone wants to learn about the product, they can go to the booth and get the shit there

Chelsea:

And get the demo

Den:

And get the demo and all that. And they're like, that's cool. They're like, we want you just to talk thought leadership. And because I had deployed Zero Trust Adobe in 2017, then moved to Cisco 2020 and done the same thing there, and then joined that ZT vendor. So for me, it's like I can talk thought leadership on strategy. It does include some of the little drips of Kool-Aid of Zero Trust, right? So it did play in fine, but I think the reality is so many conferences we go to, they are just like every speaker is talking about shit that their product company makes and they pay to be there.

Chelsea:

So

Den:

I totally understand it, but it does get hiring after a while, doesn't it?

Chelsea:

Yes. I think I don't do many free events now because I just feel like I've got my kids, I've got to make money if I'm spending days preparing a talk and traveling, that's time and time for me is money as an independent business person. But I do, there are conferences where it's like, okay, we would love you to come and speak, but pay us. And I'm like, well, no, I'm not there to sell a product. But it's tricky. The event space is tricky. It's like how do you put the events on if you're not charging people to attend? So you do need the sponsorship. But yeah, it is an interesting market

Den:

And things like Black Cat and RSA and all that stuff. It's funny now because I don't really go to those events to go to the events. I'd no longer buy a ticket for Black Cat or RSA. I'll go to the city, I'll do networking. I'll meet more of my friends that I probably only see twice a year at those events. I have really little desire, little desire to sit in line and some of those, it's like you're sitting in line for some of the talks and stuff. Mainly actually at Defcon Defcon, great conference, but for me, last year was the first year. I didn't go to devcon in 15 years, and that was because for the three or four years before, I was in lines for more than an hour to get to a top. And I'm like, this is bullshit. I'm like, this isn't Disneyland, is it?

Chelsea:

Yeah, no, that doesn't feel all right.

Den:

No.

Chelsea:

Well, yeah, I was at TechCrunch to shop last week and I did feel like I got more value out of the side events and the networking events after the day was done,

Den:

Even though I didn't go there last week, I was traveling on vacation last

Chelsea:

Week. Oh, oh, that's better.

Den:

I'll be in San Francisco this week and then next week I'll be in LA and that's the last of my travel for the year. Yeah, so you've got a couple more weeks in San Francisco. So let's talk about the future. So what's your goal in the next couple of weeks? What do you hope to achieve? But then more from the business perspective, because you're like an independent contractor, you're building mean. So what is valuable for you to come for three weeks to San Francisco that you wouldn't really get back in Scotland?

Chelsea:

So I'm actually launching a new business, which is in the age assurance space. So this is a whole other topic. So for the last four years as well as having my business, I've been doing a PhD and the PhD has been looking at how do we anonymously tell who online is an adult or a child? And it's had a real cyber focus of right now there's so many laws changing globally where age verification is being mandated for social media, for adult content, for e-commerce, for all sorts of platforms. And the predominant way that we're doing age verification is by uploading id or showing your face to do a facial age estimation scan. And as cyber folk, I'm thinking, well, we're now collecting mass ID across the internet. We're asking people to show their face to potentially access content that they may not want to show their face access.

So my whole PhD is how can we anonymously tell who's an adult and who's a child? So I developed my own system, had to go back to my coding days, built my own machine learning models, and I've now got this solution, which at the moment is just over 90% accurate in being able to anonymously distinguish adults from children. So I'm like, okay, well I've got two kids. I want to make the internet a safer place for them, so I want to take this commercial. So I literally was due to submit my PhD on Friday and I was ready. I tried to upload it and the uni wasn't ready for me.

Den:

Oh wow.

Chelsea:

I know. But I'm like, it's done. I'm done on my side. So now got a new startup and I'm trying to get that investment to take it to the next level and get it out there into the world, which is why I'm in San Francisco. And I think it's interesting trying to build in Scotland versus just

Den:

The

Chelsea:

Opportunity and mindset here is just very different.

Den:

Yeah, it mean, can you describe the difference and then what's it been trying to pitch to investors?

Chelsea:

Yeah, yeah. So the mindset is just so ambitious. Everybody has a startup idea. It is like entrepreneurship's in the water in this place, and it's quite refreshing. It's quite refreshing,

Den:

The refreshing water. I think the Scottish water is actually taste better.

Chelsea:

I think the water is nicer in Scotland, but the attitude here is quite refreshing. Just the ambition and the sort of let's just do it attitude. I've enjoyed that. And I think as somebody from Scotland coming over, everybody's like, you need warm intros. You need warm intros. So I've been hustling this last week, going back to back networking events, just to try and grow my network, meet different people and try and get to the people who align with me, my goals and want to support that. So yes, I'm here for another two weeks and if there's anybody who buys what I'm selling, then please get in touch with me.

Den:

So anybody who is interested in anonymous age verification,

Chelsea:

They'll

Den:

Help make the internet a safer place maybe for their kids, really it's maybe more

Chelsea:

Kid thing. So the aim is how do we make the internet safer for kids and secure for adults, so adults aren't having to upload their ID to multiple platforms. So I dunno if you heard about the Discord data breach a couple of weeks ago, but yeah, there was like 70,000 government IDs were leaked through because of the age verification process that they have in place, and that's going to continue to happen. So that's my goal is how do we make the internet safer and secure

Den:

For everyone? I mean it's interesting because I think that would be a thing the investors would jump at, but what's been your experience when you've had, because I always hear startups, so what's your experience like pitching this to investors? What's been there response? Normally I hear people churn through pitch deck after pitch deck a billion times before they start getting something. So what's it been like?

Chelsea:

Yeah, so I think because I've been at networking events, I'm not entirely sure if I'm speaking to the right people, just who you're speaking to. I spoke to one investor at an event who was like, oh, cyber's too spicy for me. And I'm like, I get that. Yeah. So yeah, I think it does. Somebody said it because 12 Scottish founders out here now, somebody said it's a bit like the Hunger Games, and it does kind of feel like that a bit of, yeah, it is a bit intense, but I also think it is about finding the right investor and it's just taking the time to try and find those right leads. So it's a nice relationship. And there was one event where the room was packed with founders and me and one of the guys from the trip showed up and then they said, oh, by the way, all the investors have green name badges and these poor investors were swamped. And I thought, oh no, it just doesn't feel like the right environment to try and build that good relationship with a potential investor for both sides. But

Den:

I think it's interesting. I mean is the tactic to be I'm building this thing that makes the internet safer for kids. I'd love to connect with you, give me your details and I'll message you next week or the week later and we'll grab time. Or is it you're having a drink and you're trying to pitch them your shit while having a drink?

Chelsea:

So I'm probably one of the worst salespeople ever. And so all the business that I've got has been through my network over the last six years. So I've watched the tactics of some founders and they are like, here's like, oh, hi, you're looking at me. Here's my pitch. And that's not really my style. I'm trying to just introduce myself and say, I'm here for a couple of weeks. If there's anybody who wants to grab coffee, then let me know, but maybe I need to be more cut through. I don't know, after I'm done and I'm on the plane home, I'll know whether my tactic has been good or not. But yeah, I'm not sure.

Den:

Yeah, I mean, I've had a bunch of founders on the show and through our business or consultancy then we deal with a lot of founders. I have never once thought to ask them what made a pitch successful, but I think in the next couple of shows, would I bring in founders? I think I'll bring in some more founders and then I'll also bring in some more investors

Chelsea:

Would be. I want to hear that. That is so useful. Yeah, I think when I've been speaking to investors, they're like, we want warm intros and we see loads and loads of pitch decks, and so I feel like it is more of do you have a personal connection? Are they a parent and they're worried about their kids online safety? I did speak to one investor who was like, yeah, I've got teenage kids, and so this is a concern of mine. So I think if you can connect, I think that's where the magic happens. Instead of it being we're shoved in this busy room and I'm going to pitch and a million other people are going to try and pitch it just, yeah, it wasn't great.

Den:

Yeah, pretty. But I think that's part of the slog, really, right? So one of the takeaways I guess then is if you're going to be a founder, then you got to and you're looking for investment, then you've got to figure out how you plan to pitch. And before you fly from Scotland to San Francisco, be ready for all those meetings because

Narrator:

You're

Den:

Hustling. I mean, you're like, you are basically everyday meeting, meeting, meeting, talking about what you're doing. But I think the biggest thing is most investors, there's a passionate element to this. One, do you care about your kids on the internet?

Chelsea:

So

Den:

There is that piece of the puzzle, but at the end of the day, what the investors really care about is am I going to make money? I'm gambling,

Chelsea:

Which they will, any investor who's listening,

Den:

Which they will,

Chelsea:

It's a massive, massive market. The thing, I'm also a business person. I'm like, how do we make money from this and comply with the law and meet all the needs of all the stakeholders

Den:

And the European regulations? The European regulations are much tighter and it's more stringent than the US ones.

Chelsea:

Yeah, well, so there's different US states like Texas, Utah, have put age verification laws in place, and it is spreading like wildfire, like Brazil, India, obviously Australia's bringing in their social media age limits. So it is going to be a big thing big that's going to continue globally to be brought into

Den:

Play. Would your goal be in the future that you plan to sell the company to one of these big social media giants? Or is it you just become rich in your IPO and then you become a huge phenomenon? Phenomenon?

Chelsea:

I think exit is definitely something that I would hope to build to and achieve, but I also want it to be accessible to different platforms. So whether you're an alcohol or tobacco retailer or you're a social media giant, so selling it to one social media platform means that they can do it for themselves. So I think if I could sell it to somebody who could make it accessible would be the ideal solution.

Den:

Yeah, yeah. It would be good to keep it like Switzerland where it's just you're a common service used by the world.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Den:

That is awesome. So as time takes on, Chelsea, I am going to ask one simple question for you to help close us out. Okay. You're going to give advice to anybody who's following in your footsteps. What would it be?

Chelsea:

What would it be? I think anybody that's following in my footsteps, I would say continue to be curious and learn cyber touches on every part of a business. So understanding how you can make businesses secure and profitable and that we're not, blockers I think is really important, is that wider view of how cyber fits into business. Another thing I would say is definitely know your own worth and make sure that you're somewhere where you're respected and adding value. And if you feel like that's not your current place, then get out.

Den:

Beautiful. Let's close on that advice. Those are two little gems. I really appreciate you being on this show, Chelsea. Thanks for having me while you're up here. Then my goal is we'll catch up in the next few days, actually, so that'd be awesome. That'd be great. Hey, thanks for coming on the show. I will want to check back in with you and we should do a follow up and probably early next year just to see how you guys are doing and maybe there's some big investors that have chosen to jump in and partner with you in this is, I agree, this is a huge opportunity. I think this market is struggling right now. So yeah, I think you're going to bring something brilliant to bear. So I'm going to be sitting in the sidelines watching with enthusiasm. Thank you. Thank Chelsea. Thanks

Chelsea:

Den.

Den:

Awesome. Take it easy. Thanks for being on the show.

Narrator:

Thanks for listening to 9 0 9 exec. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and don't miss an episode of your source for wit and Wisdom in cybersecurity and beyond.

‍

Credits

Video & Audio Post Production Services:

SoundHaus Studio: www.soudnhaus.studio